Bill: Thank you for joining the Missing Half podcast. I'm Bill Woods, your host, where we're discovering what's missing in B2B and manufacturing marketing. We're here today live from the Ascenso Tires warehouse in Stow, Ohio. As you can see, we're surrounded by a lot of tires, both large and small. And with us today is the marketing manager of Ascenso Tires. Annie Boyer. Annie, thank you for joining us today.

Annie: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Bill: Excellent. Well, thank you. So we've been working with Ascenso Tires and Tyres International before that for a number of years. And I wanted to start by just getting a little bit into your background. So you're newer here to a company that's been around a long, long time. But in the two years you've been here, you've been baptized by fire and this transition and growth. So maybe if you would talk a little bit about your educational background and maybe where you came from, because I think that also ties into why we maybe we could talk about the heritage you have in the tire industry and just start there and we'll just learn more about you.

Annie: Sure. Yeah. I went to school at Bowling Green State University. I actually started out as a marketing major, switched to public relations and then finished with a communications degree. So I took a lot of classes it just worked out that way. I was able to study abroad in France for my last semester. So that was that's an amazing experience to discover really, who you are as your final release before the real world.

Bill: Yeah. My daughter is advocating at least a year abroad to study art, and so I'm sure that will cost me a lot. Anyway, that's great, and I think that is an experience. Those are the type of experiences that really can shape you internationally and then you're now working with an international company. So that's kind of a neat transition.

Annie: Yeah, I learned early on the communication styles. I was told I have a very American accent and I need to slow down a little bit. So yeah, it was it was a great experience. And now working with an Indian company has really benefited that I'm kind of learning the cultural shifts and the communication styles. So yeah, it's great.

Bill: Excellent. So your background before the college experience, maybe there was some foreshadowing as to how we arrived in the auto and tire industry. Maybe talk a little bit about that heritage your family has in the tire business.

Annie: Yeah, my dad just retired from Bridgestone. He was there the last half of his career, he was in I.T. He actually graduated with an accounting degree, but found a passion in technology, infrastructure. So he he was there for a really long time. And it might have been the Bridgestone Invitational Golf Club seating that got me here. But it was yeah, it was a great industry to be in. And he just, you know, when I applied for this job, he was like, it's benefited me very well. And it's a growing industry and it's never going to go away anytime soon. So tires are needed on every facet. So yeah, it was a good encouragement from him.

Bill: Yeah. Ever since what, the invention of fire and the wheel, there's been certain industries that have stood the test of time and certainly wheels and tires are a big part of what keeps this economy going and keeps things moving, whether it's an agricultural tire, keeping the backbone of our country, moving with food production, or if it's the construction tires and some of the other things you guys have that keep building and road construction and just commerce moving. Yeah, I don't think you have to worry that the tire business is going away anytime soon. So that's a that's interesting. So one of the things we had, the interesting position of at the time Tyres International came to us, Mike came to me, and said, Hey, Bill, we need some help recruiting in-house marketing talent because we're just growing so fast. We need support. He didn't have the capacity or the resources to do it anymore because of his moving up in the company and extra responsibilities. So we actually helped recruit and hire you, which is kind of a neat story to see it all came full circle and now you're sitting on our podcast. So that's the we have, I guess, a vested interest in your career. But as you came in and this I think is an interesting topic, we could kind of discuss. You came in as a marketing manager and that didn't replace our services as an agency. It really was more about teamwork and support and working together. So how have you seen your role with the company and then working with us to really drive campaigns, content, social media, video, all of those things? What have you seen over the past two years?

Annie: Yeah, so I actually come from my past career. I was the only person marketing department in nonprofits. So having someone to talk to and strategize and think marketing and less business like with Mike who was just thinking, you know, maybe a little political about as we get to have creative conversations. And I think it's been a huge help. And even with the small stuff you guys helped with like posting on our website page, or Hey, can you translate this to a PDF because I don't have the software at the moment. Like even small stuff like that, but then then they can share ideas as well. I think it's a huge help. And you guys had the experience and background in manufacturing marketing, which I don't. So it’s been helping me grow in this role and learning the different facets of it and where we need to be in ten years and not just how to get something done tomorrow.

Bill: So we see strategy is a huge component and we can’t just go out and do things in marketing anymore. I mean, one of the things that's critical to our brand is, you know, in 1896 John Wanamaker, the father of modern advertising, said half or 50% of my advertising is wasted. He only wished he knew which half. And that's so much more true today because there's just an infinite number of possibilities and ways to approach it. And I think as we've seen Tyres International move to Ascenso Tires North America and that transition has been pretty amazing and fast and approaching that with an incorrect strategy could be costly or more costly and inefficient. So I think the collaboration we've been able to establish and working on the strategy first was super important and has really helped the growth and where we are today. So that's that's been exciting to see. When you look at Tyres International having been around for 50 years and as a distributor here in North America, and then you look at Ascenso while they're a new company, they're the family that owns Ascenso, has 30 plus years of manufacturing experience in the tire industry. It feels like and you can see why both companies came together because there should just be a tremendous output based on, you know, collectively 80 years of experience or however you want to do that math. Are you seeing that day to day as you watch some of your colleagues work together, both from the factory and then here from your distribution work here?

Annie: Yeah definitely, so we have so we have both the technical side and the sales side working together now. So we have people who are communicating from the plant in India saying this is where we want to go in the future. And the sales guys saying, well, this is where you should be going based off our customers needs and wants. So it's been a it's been a lot of communication, but it's gotten us really far. I think we're 700 plus SKUs now in four years, which is we're the largest growing our fastest growing tire manufacturer in the world. So I think we're in over 90 countries. So it’s not just in North America. So you get the feedback actually do communicate with our partners in Ireland and Australia and the UK and we kind of collaborate just like on the side in LinkedIn. But it's still, it's, it's great because small stuff like where do you get your tires hands and, and what are you putting at your trade shows or what kind of social media do you think is more important than others some of those things. So it's so it's really helped us kind of meld all the experiences together and to really push forward and to see where it leads.

Bill: We, my family, in the early 2000s owned about 14 John Deere dealerships, and we often found when we got together with the other dealers, we learned more than when we were talking sometimes to the manufacturer. And I think there's what you're describing, there's very important. You have your sales team here in North America, but also around the world that’s giving good market feedback. You have your technical manufacturing arm that is bringing in their feedback and it feels like with Ascenso they're listening to both sides and really trying to find the best path and the best like balance point for those things. And that probably is what is contributing to them being the fastest growing tire manufacturer in the world because you can't operate in any vacuum on the marketeting side or on the manufacturing side. You have to find that balance. So that's exciting to see. We also know that Ascenso has this credo, their tagline, mission statement, whatever it is, never stop rising. Can you talk about maybe how you see that every day and what that means here in North America to Ascenso. 

Annie: Yeah, definitely. I think honestly, it's very inspiring to like to look at that every day, which is awesome and I think it's just we're not just doing what everyone's doing. We're looking forward to what needs to happen in the future. Whether that's bias to radial or the the technology that we've been importing, that's seen a lot of traction and the steel belting and all that stuff.

Bill: Yeah. So when we look at so I have a personal interest in agriculture. I own a my family and I own a organic dairy farm. So like we actually have, full disclosure, we have some Ascenso Tires on our tractors. Yes, we paid for them. So this is not a paid program, a paid promo or whatever, but we have enjoyed those tires. But one of the things the point of this is agriculture around the world is very similar. And while there are cultural variances based on geography, climate, etc., people are just trying to grow food to feed their customers. So in specifically in the agricultural segment, I can see how you you're finding parallels in Ireland. I saw there was a recent a big event in Poland and the UK, Australia, certainly India because that's where they're from. The factory. So that's exciting to see. And I think I've been watching, I've been lurking on the social media of these different folks. I think we're starting to see that “never stop rising” really penetrate each distributor or dealer or distributor organization however that's termed in those countries really, really embody that. And I think that's a great credit to the leadership and to each member who’s really focused on that and receiving that inspiration every day. So that's that's exciting to see. So one of the things we like to talk about in this is this is the Missing Half podcast and we're trying to discover what's missing in manufacturing and B2B marketing. So when you look at what you're doing in marketing today, for Ascenso and then maybe even compare and contrast that to your nonprofit work, what do you feel maybe a year or two ago was missing that you're now kind of fulfilling and doing? And we always like to talk about what's working and also what didn't work because let's be honest, it's marketing. It all doesn't work, right? We have to test, we have to experiment, we fail, we optimize and pick ourselves back up and try again. So what do you feel are any like missing components that you were observing in the past that you fulfilled, and then after that, maybe we'll pivot to what do you feel is still missing that is part of the future.

Annie: Yeah, I think there was not much of a marketing presence before I came to be completely honest. It was very much just B2B marketing being a distributor. But now we are the manufacturer there's a little more end user involvement and I think what has been working is almost using end user marketing to get the B2B sales. So while our digital ads and our sponsored ads are more end user targeted, it's that B2B, the sales guys, the distributors are going to see that and see that we're putting in the money and effort into marketing us as a company. So they see that and like, that gets us in the door. So we did our market mapping with you guys. So you are so they those names and numbers are in the sales guys' hands as well as in our ad. And so they see the ad and they get the call from the sales guy and they’re like, I know who you are. So it's kind of melding the two, which is a lot different than what we were doing before. I think also a social media presence wasn’t much before. I think it's kind of a goal of ours is to do something every day. Just to have something out there to keep the presence front of mind. And then also our sales guys want to use that stuff in their sales. They’ll share it or they'll take that graphics and give it to their distributor. They’ll say hey you should use this on your social media help you market our company. It's those are kind of the things that have been working that maybe were missing first.

Bill: No those are good points. So when you look at those things. So let's talk about branding Ascenso was brand new to the market. And one of our first initiatives was to get branding information out there. So it wasn't to sell SKU wasn't to sell whatever SKU this is, right? It was just to say, hey, we're Ascenso, never stop rising and specifically we’re in that R1 which for those of you aren’t tire folks that's the agricultural tire this this type of profile here but front and rear on a but the that was our first effort. And one of the things I felt that was really gratifying is you don't always get attribution to every marketing dollar you spend. But whenever we got the feedback from the sales team that whenever they were walking in and talking to people on the phone, email, in person at trade shows or polishing doorknobs because it still happens in the industrial segment, they were known, the people had seen the ads. People were aware of the brand in a very short amount of time, and I think that really helped tee up some of your trade show activities. Hopefully there was more volume of people into your trade show booths. So I think that was exciting to see that branding component take place. And one of the things we're seeing in the market is branding for B2B is now so important. If we're not in front of our clients on a consistent basis, we're going to miss the opportunity for that 95/5 opportunity and the 95/5e rule states that 95% of your market is not actively buying or looking to investigate a purchase. Only 5% is active in buying. The 95 we have to stay in front with branding so that whenever they move into the 5%, we're top of mind and a consideration for that buying event. So I think that was one of the initiatives we did that was really successful. And that we continue to do because branding is so important. We've extended that with your unique value proposition. And then also you guys had some independent testing done, which I'm not a tire scientist, so I can't go into a lot of detail and I don't think that's your space either. We just as marketers, we recognize the arrows were pointing up and our performance was good, so we want to tell the market, but that's another initiative we use. So I think we had a great marriage of branding and then getting into some more features, benefits, and more importantly than that, telling the story of the value of those tires. So that was that was very important. So and I think social media is also something that you mentioned that we we've done some work in. And you're right, we've gone to the end user. So we did a wonderful shoot with Vince, a farmer in northern Ohio. This gentleman has been farming for forever. Like I think he started with the first John Deere and now he has big John Deeres and beautiful tires, wonderful man, a rural cropper here in northern Ohio. And I think he told a valuable story that is very much an important part of marketing today, which is we can't just show the factory and the machines and can just show this beautiful warehouse with all these amazing tires in it. We have to show solutions. And that end user story with that solution was so important to, I think, kind of rounding out the the company's story this year. And it was great production value. The drone, beautiful day and I think Vince may wax the tractor every day. I don't know. It's a beautiful tractor, but it was just such an amazing event. But are you seeing those social media inputs really drive conversations, not only like in the office with the factory, with the sales team and then with distributors and possibly end users?

Annie: Yeah, definitely. I think that video, we got so much great content from it that we can use in almost every section of our marketing. So while yes, it looks very nice to have this gorgeous video production on our social media, we take that to the distributor. We're using that in our OEM prospects at the moment. And saying this is a real life testimonial of someone who's had it for two seasons who has testified that the tread doesn't look a day old is the insane thing. It has everything he wants with the dual mud breakers and how long he's been farming, he he knew his stuff better than I did. He knows some of the things he was saying. I was like, That's great. I don't know what it means, but it sounds great and it's stuff I have heard our production team talk about as I'm learning, I'm like, okay, this is I'm so glad I can match what our production team’s goal is to what the end user is saying. I think that's so important and those testimonials are kind of what’s driving our business right now, bringing those videos, those small snippets. And I know we talked about doing smaller like that for a good minute and a half video, but pulling some small things from that and expanding that beyond into construction and forestry, I think is just what's really going to put us on top as the value high quality tire that we are improving it.

Bill: Sure. Yeah, I think that's an important point. You know, one of the stories, it hasn't been told yet and it's young, right? We're impetuous and impatient and we're like, we’ve got construction, forestry, we want to go and market it. And that's hopefully I'm not spoiling 2024 and 25, but there's the value proposition and the value story, the brand promise, and then the brand delivery and agriculture is going to be extended into those other markets. I think that'll be exciting to see that story play out and then also see some end users really utilize those tires or tracks or whatever type of situation there is and to execute their business and do it really well. So one of the things we worked on this year and I guess something we found that was missing was in the website, a lot of users were looking for a selector in a search functionality, not to look for the Ascenso X, Y, Z model, etc. They know their machine and they know the tire they need. So I think one of the things we found there was an area that was missing in like the usability of the website. Maybe talk about how we came to that conclusion, like the feedback you got from the sales team. And then we know we're actively addressing that even as we speak. I think there's folks back at the office are working that today, but maybe talk about how you got that feedback and learned what was missing in the website user experience in finding the tire that they needed for their application.

Annie: Yeah, So we definitely still have those customers, those and users like our our friend Vince still has a flip phone. And I couldn't email him had to call him and he wants the mailers and the print catalogs. But we're moving a little more into the digital space with our dealers and they want to make sure that they have what their customers are looking for and really cleaning up our website to showcase our range. But also what they're looking for specifically on has been a huge and just to like talking to the sales guys and having them go through the website and then communicating that to you guys and you by saying, okay, this is like the perfect mix of that. Of what's going to help clean up the website, make it, optimize it faster, and show that also what they want in the specific search functions. So I think it's been it's been that it's improved a lot over the years. I'm sure if we we we work on it constantly. I feel like it's not something that you can do and leave it alone for couple of years. It's going to need constant updates and there's development happening and new products being added. And you know, we've developed a really great process of doing that with you guys, where because it's kind of it's going to take a couple people to got there. So yeah, making it user friendly but also dealer friendly and compliant with India what they want. So it's something.

Bill: Yeah. So I think when we look at the website process and optimizing usability, probably one of the recognitions there was while large distributor deals like ABM type of work where we're looking at maybe someone has 20 or 30 branches that they're going to buy the tires by the container and then redistribute. They're probably looking more at that high level, high funnel value proposition, you know, support, supply, on time delivery, etc. When we're looking, though, this is a business that sold basically two tires at a time, right? Because you generally are based in pairs. So when we look at that, we have to recognize that not only do we have to meet that ABM or that big corporate client and communicate to them, we also have to communicate to the final transaction is going to be done with several digits, dashes and back slashes that you know, as this tire right here is 420 backslash a 90 or 30 and I don't know what that means per se. I know there's a grid and we can look it up and we can define that. But those are that's ultimately where the transaction occurs. So we have to be mindful of the different buyers personas that are involved in your website and involved in all of your digital, and then making sure that we have a user experience that meets both of them or multiple buyer personas where they're at. So that's exciting that we've we've kind of figured that out and we're developing an optimization plan for it. So when we look at what's missing and what didn't work, are there any examples and some of our clients really struggle with this So it's fine if you don't have anything. What we tried, where you tried that was not as successful as you would have liked it to have been, or your you want to change for next year.

Annie: I think something that I've learned when it comes to especially social media, there's difference between paid and organic and they going to be completely different campaigns in a sense even between social media is like our LinkedIn presence is going to be different than our Facebook presence. Our LinkedIn is very is more B2B, whereas our Facebook is more end user. So we actually got an opportunity to work and partner with his name’s Juan from Gold Rush on Discovery Plus. So yeah, and he has really helped with his influence. And if we think about influencer marketing, you think of people selling stuff on TikTok. And you, they go, we're a manufacturer. We can't really working in influencer marketing. But he has grown our social media following and by one with one post. Crazy. And it's going to be like we've given the tires he has we've made them a little more shinier and like putting the white on it. So when he's on the show you’re able to see it too so we wouldn't do that he's not on LinkedIn. That's not where his audience is. So it's completely different. And so I think trying to have the same target market for different avenues was kind of where we learned over this year. So it didn't work to do the same thing for everything. I mean, we talk about in general marketing, but anything tailored specifically like our digital ads are going to be completely different that our organic social media cause they’re not the same. And so I think that's that was the missing part, is that learning of those differences.

Bill: No, that's that's great. And I think that that talks about a category that we're very passionate about, which is no one in manufacturing and B2B marketing should talk about social media. Social media is too big of a word. We have to have a LinkedIn strategy oh wait that's even too big. We need a LinkedIn organic strategy. We need a LinkedIn paid strategy. We need LinkedIn employee advocacy strategy. We need LinkedIn and some people don't even know about this sales navigator strategy. And it is so important in today's B2B and manufacturing marketing space that we look at those things and really segment them, segment them by target audience, by message, by value proposition, by problem solution definition, and it’s so critical that we identify the differences that occur or need to occur in our approach and execution to deliver on something like social media, which has to be broken down. So Annie I think that's a that's a great insight. And I agree that Ascenso has come a long way now that was something that was missing, let's say, 12 to 18 months ago. We're getting there. We're not there yet. I don't know that we’ll ever get there. Right. It changes every day. But we're getting there. And I think the other thing that's neat about working with you guys at Ascenso is in it's exciting is your product line is changing every day. They're constantly sending out new inventory lists of new models and sizes and SKUs that they've developed. Maybe talk about that, that dynamic environment of it's never the same day twice at Ascenso Tires North America.

Annie: It’s definitely not. I think we do so much across the marketing channels. It's not because we do have those end users who need the print catalogs, but we also have to cater to the digital stuff. We have to do the trade shows, which again isn’t as fancy, I guess it's is not as digitally up and coming. You don't have screens everywhere. We have tires everywhere. So we're not going to I'm saying you need to kind of tailor to the end user who's coming to touch and see what you have. And then they're asking you, do you have this exact size? And is like, we might in two days. Like, who knows? So yeah, it's been a lot of a lot of growth and a lot of figuring out how to implement that growth smoothly and not just throwing information at people. It's collecting it in a way that you can put it out in what how they want to like take it in on how they want to talk about it to their customers. So it's it's not just, hey, we have this and it was one new size. It's like we have to twenty sizes. Where does this fit into your customer base? And I think we have been doing like even the old school presentations and USB drives and, and that stuff. That helps because then, I mean, but then we're sending them a new one in a couple of months. So it's in that works for some people more so than just putting on our website and saying, hey, go find it.

Bill: I think the important thing you're getting at there and we talk about this a lot with our clients in our office is we have to recognize that the buyer's journey is not linear. The buyer's journey is messy. It involves traditional channels like paid search, paid social, seeing ads and kind of coming in through that high funnel attraction content. But it also involves a new and emerging field called dark social, where people are watching a podcast like this and getting information and learning about 50 Marketing and learning about Ascenso Tires and then they maybe take a screenshot because I know my staff loves it when I do this on social media. Take a screenshot and send it to them and say, Talk to me about this. I'm sure there's no one else on the planet that does that. So there are so many ways in this messy buyer's journey that we have to be mindful of and make sure that we're meeting our buyers where they are, wherever they are on the journey. There's a statistic that 86% of the buyer's journey happens online before a client contacts you, via phone text email chat, however, and we have to make sure and I think you're alluding to this, that we are meeting that buyer on that 86% of the journey wherever they are and filling in those gaps. And if it's an old school USB drive, I mean, I'm a good bit older than you and I've been around a lot longer. And I remember like we used to print CDs and hand out the sleeves and then the USBs and then did you get the lanyard with the USB or did you just hand it a whole bunch of things we did back in the dark ages. But if that still works in this industry and it helps the buyer and meets them and fills that gap in their journey to get them to that purchase point, I mean, ultimately what we're here to do is not to do digital marketing, it’s to affect markets and to help our clients grow and help you grow. And if that means USB drives let’s do USB drives, if it means trade shows, as much as we all love business travel, let's do trade shows. And you know, so and to follow up on that, your trade show business you guys have done and this industry seems to still be very trade show centric. I mean, it's just the nature of it. People like to touch the tires, which I guess that's still important. I don't know. Like my family used to own a furniture manufacturing company. And people love to sit in the couches and the chairs that I kind of got because like, you would touch it, you'd sit in it, you would feel it. But this industry seems to be very they want to touch the tires. They want to see it. They want you to be there. And you guys have how many trade shows did you guys do?

Annie: It was just a handful. And I say that as an we're looking to a lot more in the future. And it's kind of, again, that building the brand awareness and then that will lead to those distributor purchases. Proposition so I it's it's and I will say that working with you you put that so much better than I could have and I think that’s such that’s a point of kind of our relationship is I have these ideas and I can you can eloquently say them and put them into action whereas I'm just like this happened and I think we should do this about it. You're like, okay, let's do a little more professional than just that. 

Bill: That's hopefully what we bring to the table. What we really strive to do and is kind of at our core is we do not want to do digital art. We want to be part of the journey at the inception with the strategy and making sure we have the right goals and objectives set forth. And it's trickier than ever, right, because we're seeing a lot of generational shifting. So there's more millennials in the workforce than ever. And the way they buy, even in the professional B2B space, is wildly different than certainly the baby boomers. I think I'm Gen X, I can't remember. You know, all those different generations. So I think it's very important that we have the right strategy and that's what I do all day is talk to clients and develop strategy. So that's hopefully why I can put those things together. But getting the information from you guys is what's so important to understand the business. And I feel like in the last two years you've come up to speed really, really quickly, even though you have that heritage in tires. Your dad was at Bridgestone in I.T. So it wasn't like you were touching the tires, but you were aware of the industry. But I feel like in the last two years you’ve really come up to speed quickly in understanding the market, which is so critical because for us to have a successful client relationship, we need a point person at the factory or representing the factory or the distributor who can help extract information, who can help be that bridge for us and will we find that team between our team and your team, when we can really work together. That's where we get outsized results. And we found that with Ascenso. So we've enjoyed the relationship certainly. And I know Mike isn't here today, but I'm going to shake his hand again so I always like to see Mike whenever I'm in town. But this is my second visit to this warehouse. The last time there were flat tires moving everywhere, which is great, but right now is a downtime, so we don't have all of the forklifts running and all the tires moving. Well, Annie, the the other things we look at is as we look towards the future and as you think about B2B and manufacturing marketing, is there anything you see as being like critical in the next phase for Ascenso develop? ome of the things that come to mind are the social media, the the organic content we’ve talked about. Those or anything else you can think of that would be super by more part of your strategy.

Annie: I think we're looking a lot closer at sales enablement stuff that we're doing. We have the initial promotional items that we give at trade shows. Pens, post-its. We've actually been becoming known for our hats. I'll give you one.

Bill: Nice, I'm looking at our producer Noah, you're going to get a hat. I got a thumbs up.

Annie: It's just as in we're really looking into doing things well. Not just to do them. And that comes with the sales enablement stuff and not just putting out fliers. It's the correct flier. It's creating a flier for a distributor. It's that kind of stuff that's going to, again, get us in the door, keep us in the door, keep us front of mind. But then it also complements everything else we're doing. It's not just those fliers are going to match our ads a little bit. Our trade show stuff is going to get into the right hands and end users are I'm I'm trying to do a little sponsorship action in there I think that's a huge deal especially these big shows because you've got the right people there who are interested in this stuff and but like the hats, they’re nice hats so it's like just like wear it out or like the shirts or the polos we're trying to invest things that are going to the dealers to get them to where to get stuff to go in their stores, like posters and tire stands and just attire out there so people can see it. So that and these are asked, is that I've never maybe never heard of that before. I'm sure something we've implemented this year is the farm service truck technician recognition program. So it was kind of it was from one of our products managers. And he sees that the truck technicians, the guys who go out and replace the farm tire in the dead of winter, in the freezing rain. They are some of our biggest advocates. Because they work with them so often. So we really wanted and they’re never really had the spotlight before because everyone's worried about the end user or the dealer. So we’re starting a program we’re taking nominees and we're going to have a committee choose a winner. We're going to fight it out for SEMA. Yeah. So it's really feeding in. We've already gotten some submissions, even though there's no submission form people are just emailing us. So it's and we got a lot of traction with publications and stuff too that are saying, wow, this is something that no one’s done before, but they should be doing it. And so we're nominees. If you have, I think like five years, you get gloves hitting the 15 years, you get a really nice cargo jacket. And so and it's just a way to say, like, we see you, we appreciate you deserve this. And it's not for the faint of heart to do this work. So it's it takes a lot to stay within it in fifteen years.

Bill: So it's a physical it's a physical business. I mean, this is you know, this isn’t even the largest tire that's in here. I've seen them replace them on our tractors at our farm. My father was in the mining business. So some of the largest tires that I see down a couple rows on the rock trucks and the wheel loaders, I saw those being replaced and it is not for the faint of heart. I will say this, though. The skill and the artistry with which a single person with a crane in some like large rock class can take on and off a huge tire by themselves makes it look easier than whenever I'm trying to change the bicycle tire on my ten-year-old's pedal bike. They they like they they learn this craft. And I think that's excellent and just amazing that you guys are recognizing their contribution to not only the American economy, but also in the whole value chain, of what you're doing. We have other clients who are doing similar things, who are really recognizing every person who's involved. And I think maybe one of the things we learned from the from Covid one of the things we've learned from the whole pandemic, whatever you want to call it, is that the blue collar work is honorable, it is valuable and it is so important to everything we do every day. And when we saw that, you know, the challenges the companies had with maintaining a workforce and then, I don't know all the figures but like Mike Rowe talks about 7 million people dropped out of the workforce on his in his Dirty Jobs or whatever it is publication or show is that there was a real crisis. And I think the other thing we deal with is the younger people and the younger generation don't value that as much so we're having trouble getting the younger people to go into that field of study and that we could about that's a whole other show we could do on like society, but let's get back to this technician recognition program I think is just amazing. I think that's going to be great and it should provide and help your story. But whether that happens or not, I think when we look at the “never stop rising” attitude of Ascenso that falls right behind with recognizing people who are always rising to do that craft and do it well. And if it's rising through a rainstorm underneath a muddy piece of equipment or it's in the mine or whatever, that certainly embodies Ascenso I think that's that's amazing. And we'll be looking forward to seeing how that pans out this year. Annie this has been an amazing conversation. We have covered everything from, you know, college days through the growth of Ascenso and your professional involvement and experience here. So that's been amazing. So thank you very much and we really appreciate you joining us today.

Annie: Yeah, thanks for coming out and sparking more ideas as we had this conversation. So I'm going to run back to my desk. I'm going to watch this over and over again.

Bill: We’ll get you a transcript so you can take those points down and will include up to 2024 2025.

Annie: I’ll be typing up the notes really fast. 

Bill: Well, thanks for joining us.

Annie: Of course. Thank you.

Bill: Thank you for joining The Missing Half Podcast, where we're discovering what's missing in manufacturing and B2B marketing. Today, my guest has been John McConnell, the founder and general manager of Bull Barn Fencing. It's just amazing to see this and to see where you've come from. That four years ago to today is just amazing.

John: I thank you, it's there has been there was a lot of dark days and as you know and we we but we're here and we're doing well and we're really proud to be helping the community. So it's been really great for western Pennsylvania. It's been great for the, the end users, the farmers, the fence builders. We're very customer centric. So if the contractor wants something, we'll make it for him. And that's been absent in this particular industry for quite a while. It's been, it's been controlled by some bigger companies that really weren't willing to do, what the customers actually wanted. They wanted to do what they wanted to do. And up until we came along, they got away with it.

Bill: No. And that's interesting you say that because, we represent a number of manufacturing clients who have been very successful and having that customization options. And I feel like, you know, if we rewind maybe 20, 30, 40 years manufacturing in the United States or maybe worldwide was really focused on we make one thing. We're going to make a ton of it. Get our costs dialed in and then we're going to make the market take it. Where we see it now is people want what they want. And and I don't know if that's driven by the internet economy or whatever it is, but.

John: Oh yeah, whatever. Whatever. Suddenly things have changed. A dynamic world.

Bill: But like manufacturers who have that customization component seem to be doing a lot better than ones who are just trying to do the same old, same old. So I think recognizing that market need and then really addressing it, that seems to be a core component of some of your success. So that's great.

John: Yeah, it's been fun. You know, 20, 30 years ago you didn't care about your your employees, your customer could, you know, just took your product and not necessarily liked it. Now, well, you know, we take better care of our employees. We take great care of our customers. It's it's the way business should be.

Bill: Sure. And I think that's true. We have to be more authentic and empathetic. And if you really, like, have that culture. It permeates every part of the business, whether it's, you know, the truck driver that pulls in to deliver and experiences out on the dock and the whole way to that end user. If you can perfect that experience, you can really get more, loyalty from your customers and employees. And that's that's a neat thing. And I could see it even when we took a little plant tour here. Before we set up, I could feel, the attitude of your employees help first, they were there to show us things, and we mean nothing to them. Like they never deal with us. But they were just great.

John: Yeah.

Bill: Well John, one of the things I think that's been interesting to see evolve, and we've had a number of chats about this, in your marketing is when we first started, there was some consideration or more consideration, I think looking at end users being farmers and maybe like that more of that retail component. And that really hasn't played out. But you've been able to, research right out and pivot more to the B2B market. Can you talk about that journey a little bit?

John: Well, I really I knew that there was a market that a need for this product. I didn't know how I would go to market. And that's really what you guys came in. I mean, I thought I was going to go more of a direct route, you know, more to the end user. But you guys got my website going and you help me brand. We ended up, going the direction of all entirely B2B. You know, we have distribution, we have a, a secondary distribution. What we call a distributor and then a dealer. It really, it isn't what I expected. Sure, but it's certainly working for us.

Bill: Well and I think that's the entrepreneurial spirit is like, you go to market, test it, see what happens. And I was actually shocked as well because I thought originally when you started into this and I think, I think our first meeting was over at Clem's Barbecue. We met and had some barbecue. And you, you introduced this concept. So that was that was interesting. But, the, it's for those of you who are driving through Blairsville, I'll give a shameless plug to Clem's Barbecue.

John: It's wonderful.

Bill: On 22. Stop, grab some barbecue. It's excellent. So those of you don't make it on Route 22. We're over here east of Pittsburgh. You're missing out. But anyway, but I really thought it was going to be that end user as well. Gentleman farmer. That, smaller, you know, home rancher. Old MacDonald's farm. And now that we see this has really transitioned to the professional fence installers and two more municipal industrial clients.

John: Department of Transportation, solar farms. Just all sorts of industrial, you know, even, minimum security facilities that just want a barrier to keep people out. Not not necessarily a prison, like, but something just to delineate their property from where you should be and where people shouldn't be.

Bill: Well and I think whenever we were walking the floor and as we've experienced and been aware of your product line, I think one of the things that most people wouldn't understand about fencing is how much you can do with it, like from a standpoint of, you know, you can have the the barrier where it has the hinge, right, the face down the whole way up to the spacing between the wires. For that, you can kind of say, oh, we want critters, small critters to go through. We don't want them to go through. Could you maybe talk about how much variation there is in the product line?

John: So what we're seeing now is with some of the solar farms, they've really gotten away from that really tight spacing at the bottom where they want rabbits and raccoons and possums and all the small mammals to be able to go in and out. And so what we've done is we've modified our configurations to have bigger spacing on the bottom and maybe some tighter spacing to help keep, you know, the deer and everything out. And then, you know, the bigger spacing back up at the top so that it, it helps keep the costs down. It also is really specific to the, what we're trying to do. It just, allows much, wildlife through the area and also limit the animals that we don't want to go through anything destructive that might damage the solar fields or whatever. So, yeah, it's been a it's been an interesting and there's a lot of great, articles and topics out there. And it's a, it's a very vibrant debate right now on what should be done. And sure, here to do it where if, if it's, deemed the best thing for by the biologists. We'll certainly can make the fence.

Bill: Well that certainly, adds a, like, an environmental concern, sustainability concern to it because, you know, I grew up on a farm, and all we cared about with our fences was keeping things in. Like we didn't want the cattle to get out. But then when you look at, like, the industry, you're operating in, the greater fencing industry, keeping things out, it's keeping things in. But it's also not binary. It's not just keep everything and keep everything out. It's let some things in. Let some things out. Those type of things. So that was, a new dimension of fencing that you introduced me to because I was always just like, yeah, just so I keep everything in. That's that's not necessarily true. So, one of the other things I've found fascinating, and, you know, my own experience is my experience and it's limited, but the amount of height differential you can have on your fence to do different jobs, right? Because we all know, deer and certainly, your Australian friend with the kangaroos. Those things can jump.

John: Right, right. So we have there looms up to ten, 12ft, so they can make ten and 12. Our looms were limited to a eight foot high fence. So we can make anything from an eight foot high we have, our looms can also, if we're making. Because a loom bed is eight feet, we could make two four foot fences at one time. It certainly complicates and makes a life a little more difficult for the the loom, the machine operators but it doubles our capacity. So it is a very good way of doing things.

Bill: No that's great. And one of the other things I thought that was very interesting as we started to work with you and your branding and differentiation is we talked about the electric galvanized. You need some of the different components you look at. And then we talked today about you have different raw materials. Some of it's all made the USA melted made that certainly you've diversified a lot right in your supply chain from when you started maybe talk about that.

John: So here in western Pennsylvania we have Johnstown Wire Technologies, Liberty Wire, Johnstown, and they make an electro galvanized wire, which is a, a beautiful product. it's actually much better than what typically goes into agricultural fencing. Their main business is the utility industry. And so I thought that that would be a great way of making a superior product. But what I'm finding is that the customer is very happy with a good, high quality class three galvanized, whether it's electro galvanized or hot galvanized. So we've we've got to use both now and to, to hit a price point, that was necessary and demanded in market. So we, we still primarily use U.S. made products every now and again, we'll, we'll, we'll bring in product from Spain or Qatar or wherever. But we really do almost most of our product is all made in the U.S., most of our raw materials.

Bill: But I think that also just speaks to your growth. So you had to expand. You had to have maybe some different quality, you know, a premium line, a value line. And then, certainly the other thing it looks like you're getting into, it's I'm completely against John because I grew up with it. and I told my family if we had to go back to barbed wire, I quit. I'm no longer farming because barbed wire is the worst. But, you know, there's a segment of the market that needs that. And we we saw as some of your plans or discussions.

John: I know you don't like my new barbed wire machines, Bill you you you hissed at me right off the bat. We we just, brought in a couple of barbed wire machines. We’ll have them up and running in a couple months, and we promise not to bring any over to your farm.

Bill: I appreciate that, yeah, because I'll leave. I just remember my youth, always getting scratched. Yeah, it was just. But anyway, to those who love it and need it. Yeah, good for them. I'm going to stay with my, my woven fence and not deal with it. So, you know, I think when we look at the quality, the other thing I think that really excited me when we started working with you guys is your commitment to quality. And we talked to a lot of manufacturers and a lot of B2B companies. And as marketers, when you're looking at that branding and that unique value proposition, we really love working with companies that we don't have to actually work really hard at it. Because it's a good product with quality raw materials that is going to stand the test of time. And I think you guys, everything I see and have seen over the years, you guys have maintained that core mission to quality. So maybe talk about that.

John: Well, you wanted me to talk about. So I had I bought a farm in 1981 and the first thing I did was put up high tensile steel as three galvanized smooth wire fence. And that fence is still up today. Now, 1981 it’s 2024. My math tells me that's 43 years ago. I was young man. I was a young man but that fence is still up. Still keeping livestock or has been livestock behind that fence every day for the last 43 years. We guarantee our product for 20 years, but a realistic lifespan is 40, 50 years.

Bill Woods: Sure. And that's amazing, because when you think about most farms, we don't tear down fence and repurpose pasture, especially like pasture and if you have like a rotational grazing, you're not pulling it up every year. So when you put that in there, you want that to be generational. Because it's an investment. And it's also, you know, you got to clear it, you got to put the posts in the whole nine yards. And that's not the fun. Having the animals is the fun part.

John: It’s a big capital expense.

Bill: Sure. It's an endeavor. Yeah. And no. So I think we're we've always been excited about representing companies that are easy to represent because they're authentic. And you guys have certainly maintained that with your quality initiatives and commitment to producing, well, one, using good raw materials and then producing good quality product. So congratulations on keeping that going. Because as you grow, it's hard to maintain that and especially with your growth rate, it's very hard to maintain those commitments. And you guys have done it.

John: Yes we have.

Bill: So when we look at you know, we tried to see we tried going to the end consumer. That was a thought then in the beginning, but then it really pivoted towards that B2B market. Like maybe talk to us a little bit how you've seen that segment I mean, I know we have the, you know, the professional fence builders. You also have had you mentioned dealers and distributors and then some DOT work. Maybe look at how or talk about how you've just seen the market evolve and opportunities make themselves available in those different markets and not like specific names of customers. Just the theory behind it.

John: Well, like you said, we thought we’d do retail at first. but the end user, most of the woven wire fence is being put up by contractors. So and most of the contractors like to go to somebody that they can buy the posts, the wire and everything from and really from my perspective, I, I wanted to be a manufacturer. I didn't really want to go retail. I didn't want to. I just found that the best way to to market this product was B2B. And so as any entrepreneur, you try something, it doesn't work, you try something else, and that's it. It wasn't any master plan at all. It was pure, just a battle of attrition. And you know, we just found out that. That what I thought my idea was not a great idea, but plan B or plan C, or maybe plan D?

Bill: Yeah, as long as you don't get the whole way through the alphabet.

John: Yeah. That's right, that's right, that's right.

Bill: Because John the only real accessories that you guys offer. I mean, we saw the stable machine. You don't do posts. And that's about it, right? It's fence and stables. And you've been successful at knowing and owning your little segment of the market, not trying to do all the accessories or the supply house. Just do your thing.

John: So what we've found is, you know, you we come back to posts and what I found is that many of these post manufacturers have been my best customers. Because now they can because they have posts, but they don't have wire, we have wire, you know, you know, it's like our Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. We throw the two together. And it's a winning. It's a win win.

Bill: Is the post business more regional because of shipping? It would seem to me that you would. That fewer posts are being shipped across the country. Or is that a misconception?

John: It is. It is more regional. But there are posts coming in from Texas. But it's primarily regional, Virginia, Georgia, North Carolina. Southern Yellow pine is your best post. So most of that comes out of areas that produce southern yellow pine.

Bill: I got it. Interesting. So, John, if we have. So when one of the things we like to do is provide value for some of our listeners, which is the marketing manager community. Certainly you don't wear that hat per se. Jill does that in your business. But, when you think about what would be some advice you would have along, like, you know, how you went from that journey from going D2C and then pivoting to B2B, like, is it about being willing to test and fail and fail fast, like, what would be something you could say to encourage them or to give them guidance, like based on your journey? Because let's be honest, in four years, that's not a long time to go from. This was my strategy. To pivoting and growing really well, like, that's an amazing story.

John: Well, I guess just not being afraid to fail, you know, we just we we tried to the the direct to the consumer and it just didn't. There was no traction at all. So we you know, I was fortunate enough to have a lot of contacts in this industry. And I just got on the phone and made some phone calls, like, you know, we I feel like our branding never deviated. We did update our logos as we added capacity and different products and the different types of looms. But, we just we just kept trying until we found something that works. It really, it really was. You guys were behind us all the time with the literature, and the branding and just and the website, of course, has been a real that was a real credibility builder when, when we didn't have anything, you know, we had a little sheet of paper that we were handing out. And you made the trifold, things for us and, and so that's, that's really just been, how we've done it. Again, no master plan. We just out there haven't leaned into it. Yeah, just leaning into it.

Bill: So, how much satisfaction do you get from bringing jobs back to western Pennsylvania, rural western Pennsylvania, and in certainly a local economy that has been decimated, I mean, since the mining and the, steel mill jobs have almost all been evaporated here. I mean, certainly when you were a young man, that was all there was. And when even when I was a young man, that's what everybody did around here. But we have in this building in Indiana County, we have manufacturing jobs.

John: We have great manufacturing jobs, great pay, full health care, paid time off. You know, I'm really proud sure, that we're doing that, in, in western Pennsylvania. It's it just, I feel like, I've always felt that the American worker and I've traveled the world all over. I've seen everything from China to, Europe to almost every place it. You know, where you can see agriculture. Nobody outworks the Americans. You know, that that the idea that, the, the American worker, is not what, up to the world standard is, is a total fallacy. Sure. the guys here are just fantastic. They're committed, they're hardworking, and they're great, and it's great to be part of that community.

Bill: Yeah. We observed as we were on the factory floor a very active workforce. They were it's not warm out and they were sweating. I mean, they're working. I loved seeing, it felt like each of them had their own wire pliers. That that's kind of the tool of the trade. To to be able to, I guess, clip the the rolls when they're done. That was neat to see because, you know, everybody had their old, like in the old days, like a cobbler had his cobbler set. These guys have these wire cutters. And that's the tool of the trade.

John: Yeah. And it's a yeah, it's a it's a really a great set of wire cutters. It's a German made. Probably the best wire cutter in the world, but, it was, you know, see, as, as we walk by, the one machine operator came over and help the other machine operator and they don't need to do that, but they're just helping their buddy. They they all try to get the numbers to, you know, get as many rolls off per shift as they can. It helps them get their bonus. It really it is a very strong team effort.

Bill: That’s great. You've also been able to involve some, family members in the business, which is gratifying, as I've had, enjoy that same luxury. So maybe talk a little bit about, you know, bringing not only jobs back to this area, your home, but then also having family members involved.

John: So, when, when I first started to grow, my wife, who was working for CBS at the time, was, senior product or data analyst or something with them, had Covid. So she had to work from home and, and would come over and help me with the books at night. And, after a while, she just said, look, I'm going to quit CBS, and I'm going to work here full time. So now we have actually a couple other people working in the office with accounts receivable, accounts payable. My sister Jill, who retired now is working as a marketing manager. She's a she is just that wonderful to have working. She she can she was a, a school administrator. So, she can really get to the bottom of things, and she can be a bit demanding. I have to remind her sometimes that I'm the big brother and the boss. I'm not her student.

Bill: That explains, so that explains a lot, because we were on a couple of calls with her, and I didn't exactly get her demeanor, like, from, like, the typical marketing manager we deal with. Now that I recognize she came from school administration 100% understand it. That makes total sense. We'll make sure that we're not tardy. We’ll have our pink slips.

John: Make sure your grammar and punctuation.

Bill: Yeah. How's grammar spelled it’s with the a r, right. That's when I get in trouble. That's great. Well that's that's really interesting that you've been able to do that and I'm sure that's fulfilling as well. And I think only look at the dynamic here also, one thing that you maybe could share with is about relationships. So you build a lot of relationships in the business in this industry over the years. And this opportunity didn't come right away. It came later after you retired. I think one of the problems with the internet today is it tells these kids that by the time they're 25, they should already made their first million. Like it all should have happened. And a lot of these things take a lot of time. Time. And you don't have to arrive at 25. You don't have to arrive at 35, you know, 55 or we're going to leave it there. But let's just extrapolate that to when you retire. It can happen at different stages. But isn't a key to that the relationships you build?

John: It absolutely is the relationships. When we when we first started, I've got to say we weren't really making the best product. I tried to start with two old machines. But the, the, the people that believed in me stuck by me and they wouldn't have done that I don't think if it hadn't have been that we had a strong relationship because, it really went we just weren't making it though the product wasn't as good. We couldn't produce it as fast, so wasn't. We were always late. There was a lot of frustration on on my part and on their part, but they because they, they were, they had because of the relationship, they stuck with us and now when we're making great product, I remember who brought me and I always take good care of them.

Bill: So another, interesting idea I think we should talk about in the entrepreneurial journey is opportunity. I mean, we're talking about a lifetime opportunity in fencing here in western Pennsylvania. Like that came about because you were committed to an industry and performed in that industry for a long time. It doesn't have to be, computers, the internet. I think the current generations are not seeing the opportunity in the industrial sector. And there are amazing opportunities in manufacturing in, the trades. In those areas. And so you certainly have found one.

John: Yeah. Well, it's interesting, we just talked the other day, I was talking with somebody and I said, well, I knew I wanted to be involved in agriculture when I was eight years old, you know, and I've always I've always had livestock. I've always lived on a farm. I've always, you know, when Charlie Kendall, the owner of Kencove, called one one winter night, he said, John, I'm looking for somebody. Would you be interested in working here? And, I just jumped at the chance because it's it really was something that, you know, it was an opportunity that I didn't want to miss. And so, yeah, just keep at it, I guess, is, you know.

Bill: Til you find those opportunities.

John: Yeah, til you find that opportunity. And again, it was a relationship. It was an existing relationship with Charlie. He was the guy that built my fence in 1981. So then, so 15 years later, he calls me up and says, John, do you want to work for me? Do you want to run Kencove and or work at Kencove at the time. So, yeah, that was a relationship.

Bill: No, that's neat when, you know, I come from a similar background, enjoyed livestock, was thinking about being of a vet. Ran into chemistry. We courted for a little bit. Departed as friendly, but knowing. Knowing we weren't going to make it that and so then I went into business following my dad's footsteps, but, I really enjoy our clients who are involved in the agricultural space we work with you guys, we have, we work with the Ascenso, which does, agricultural tires. We work with Cambridge Technologies, which has autogenous vaccines for swine and bovine. And so I really enjoy those because I can have conversations really rapidly. For and use and then obviously our experience the John Deere and New Holland and Honda and still in the tire equipment trade. So I've always really enjoyed that and having an understanding. And the reality is from a business standpoint and from a marketing standpoint with only what they say, like less than 2% of the U.S. population now lives on the farm.

John: Yeah.

Bill: There are fewer and fewer people who have that base knowledge of understanding agricultural issues, animal husbandry, food production, live, whatever it is. And I think, I don't we're not going to go into whether that's good, bad or indifferent or whatever, but it's just the fact. And we position ourselves, as really being able to communicate with that, group of companies and be able to service them because we understand their business a lot better than people who are just clicking on it. Doing the website, doing the Facebook, doing whatever, we can kind of relate to them. And yeah, that was one of the things, I think it was nice when we met that time at Clem’s when we first got together. You didn't have to tell us a lot about fences. It was just more like, hey, here's my business challenge opportunity, okay? You're making fences, okay? And we were able to get right to it, right? Which I think served us both well and was more efficient.

John: And I guess I was a bit surprised when the marketing guy that I thought I'd be having a meeting with, they also could talk about cattle and milking and, you know, it was a yeah, it was immediate click.

Bill: So that's always neat to find I guess they say birds of a feather flock together or whatever those statements are. So, John, when you think about, this journey and what you're doing with this business, I just want to congratulate you. And your team, what an excellent, facility you've created here. An excellent team, an excellent company. And what a great representation in the market. I'm sure you, your business partners, family, team, employees, clients are just thrilled with your progress. So I just want to congratulate you on that.

John: Thank you, well, thank you. You you've you've played a big part in it. So I appreciate all the efforts your you and your team, have supported us all the way down. So thank you.

Bill: Excellent. Well, John, thank you for joining us today. This is just been a delight. I would love to run this back again maybe in ten more years. We’ll see where we are. You and I are both going to be in much worse states, but that's okay.

John: I'll bring my walker.

Bill: They’ll wheel me in here. We’ll be good to go. We'll probably just have our AI avatars and schedule time, and they'll show up for us. No, John, thank you so much for the time today, and we really appreciate it.

John: It's my pleasure. Thank you.